In a rare admission for a Chinese leader, Premier Wen Jiabao said the government is partly responsible for the tainted milk scandal that has been blamed in the deaths of four babies and shaken consumer confidence.
The tainted milk scandal has sparked protests such as this one in Taipei, Taiwan, Tuesday.
毒奶粉事件，引起台湾岛内民众的抗议
The government feels "great sorrow" over the crisis which has sickened more than 50,000 children, Wen said in an interview published in this week's Science Magazine.
"We feel that although problems occurred at the company, the government also has a responsibility," Wen said in the September 20 interview posted Friday on the Web site of the magazine, published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
A Chinese version of the interview in the Communist Party's People's Daily newspaper quoted Wen as saying the government had been especially lax in "supervision and management."
"We will handle the incident sincerely and seriously, and draw deep lessons from it," said Wen, who has won the admiration of ordinary Chinese citizens for his visits to the country's poor rural areas and for rallying victims of the devastating May 12 earthquake in Sichuan province.
Authorities have blamed dairy suppliers, saying they added the industrial chemical melamine to watered-down milk to dupe quality control tests and make the product appear rich in protein.
Melamine is used in the manufacturing of plastics, fertilizer, paint and adhesives. Health experts say ingesting a small amount poses no danger, but in larger doses, the chemical can cause kidney stones and lead to kidney failure. Infants are particularly vulnerable.
China's products were hammered by quality scandals even before the uproar over contaminated milk. Its manufacturing industry had been under intense scrutiny after melamine and other industrial toxins were found last year in exports ranging from toothpaste to a pet food ingredient.
Since the latest scare, milk-linked products from China have been withdrawn from stores in dozens of countries as governments increase vigilance and step up safety tests.
On Saturday, Taiwan's health authorities said the island is banning imports of ammonium bicarbonate -- a rising agent used in baking -- from the mainland after it tested positive for melamine.
Panama on Friday said several kinds of Chinese cookies and candy have tested positive for traces of melamine.
Dozens of Panamanians died last year after taking Chinese-made medicine contaminated with a thickening agent found in antifreeze.
The General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine, China's chief quality watchdog, said on its Web site Saturday that a fresh round of random tests of milk showed that none exceeded allowable amounts of melamine.
The agency said it collected samples from 544 batches of liquid milk from 70 brands in 22 cities, and from 105 batches of baby formula from 20 brands in 10 provinces.
以下是中文翻译:
北京----中国领导人很罕有地公开承认了错误，总理温家宝表示政府应该对造成4名婴儿死亡，消费者对产品信心动摇的毒奶丑闻付一部分责任。
温总理在这个星期出版的《科学》杂志的一篇采访中表示，政府对这次造成超过5万名婴儿受感染的毒奶危机感到十分的伤心。
在中国共产党的人们日报上刊登了这个采访的中国版本，上面引用温总理的话说中国政府在监督管理上面十分松懈。
中国的总理，因为经常去中国落后贫穷的农村去访问，以及今年5月12号四川大地震以后去灾区鼓舞灾民，使他得到中国普通老百姓的赞扬。他表示：“我们会对这次事故采取认真严肃的态度去处理，并且从这次事故中认真吸取教训！”
中国的奶制品供应商为了躲过蛋白质含量的质量检测，在牛奶里面加入化学品三聚氰胺，中国政府已经对这些违法供应商做出谴责。
三聚氰胺是一中用于生产塑料，肥料，颜料和粘合剂的化学品。健康专家表示摄取少量的三聚氰胺对人体危害不大，但是大量摄取的话就会造成危害，会产生肾石和导致肾衰竭。特别是对于婴儿来说，特别容易受到伤害。
其实在这次毒奶事件之前，中国的产品已经因为质量丑闻遭受了严重的打击。自从上一年在中国出口的玩具和宠物食品中发现三聚氰胺以及其他有毒的成分后，中国的制造业已经要接受严格的审查。
自从最近的毒奶事件后，许多国家的政府已经要求将产自中国的奶牛相关产品从货架上拿走，并且开始建立起食品安全测试。
台湾方面的健康发言人在周六表示，台湾已经禁止从中国进口一种用于烘焙的碳酸氢铵，因为这种碳酸氢铵被检测出含有三聚氰胺。而巴拿马在周五也表示一些中国的曲奇和糖果也检测出三聚氰胺。上一年，许多巴拿巴人因为服用了被含有增稠剂的防冻剂污染的中国制药品而死亡。
中国的主要质量检测中心，质量监督，检测检疫总管理局的官方网址周六显示，在新一轮奶制品随即抽查中并没有发现三聚氰胺含量超标的产品。
他们表示这次的检测是从全国22个城市的70个品牌中抽取554批液态奶样品，而婴儿奶粉则是从全国10个省份的20个品牌中抽取105批样品。
更多毒奶粉事件报道:
一些国家对从中国进口奶制品的处理情况 Tox...
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新华网北京１０月１７日电 温家宝接受美国《科学》杂志主编艾伯茨专访
国务院总理温家宝９月３０日上午在中南海紫光阁接受了美国《科学》杂志主编布鲁斯·艾伯茨的专访。卫生部长陈竺、科技部副部长李学勇等在座。《科学》杂志由托马斯·爱迪生创办于１８８０年，是目前国际科学界影响最大、读者最多、发行最广、最受科学家重视的科学类专业学术期刊。艾伯茨是著名生物化学家，曾担任美国国家科学院院长，现执教于美国加州大学旧金山分校，从２００８年３月起担任《科学》杂志主编。访谈内容如下：
温家宝：我非常高兴接受这次采访。我想先说两句话：一是如果我不从事政治的话，我也可能成为一位很好的科学家。二是在我从政这几十年当中，一直没有离开过对科学技术的关注。我认为一位好的领导者，是应该具备科学素养和科学知识的。我今天把您作为朋友，倾心交谈，我们彼此之间都不必拘束，您可以问我问题，我们也可以讨论问题。
艾伯茨：我很高兴今天能来到这里。首先我想对中国的神舟七号飞船成功发射表示祝贺，这是非常不容易的，是多年来中国科技事业发展的成果。最近一期《科学》杂志刊登了一篇来自中国的论文，介绍中国种植的转基因棉花不仅减少了棉花杀虫剂的使用，而且也减少了附近其它农作物杀虫剂的用量。
温家宝：在１０年前没有用转基因抗虫棉的时候，棉铃虫泡在农药里都死不掉。自从我们实施了棉花转基因工程后，棉花不仅抗虫害能力增强，而且产量也提高了。因此，我力主大力发展转基因工程，特别是最近发生的世界性粮食紧缺更增强了我的信念。
艾伯茨：我祝贺中国在这一领域达到世界领先水平。我曾经联合一些科学院和研究机构，试图将科学的思维方式引入农业领域。您知道，转基因作物在欧洲遭到强烈抵制，从而影响这一重要技术在非洲广泛应用。
温家宝：不要把转基因这种科学同贸易壁垒联系在一起，那就会阻挡科学的发展。
艾伯茨：您在地震发生后立即赶赴灾区，对中国应对灾害产生了巨大影响，您也因此蜚声世界。您是否能进一步介绍一下您是如何应对地震灾害的，以及中国今后将采取哪些防震减灾的措施？
温家宝：５月１２日下午２点２８分在汶川发生特大地震。当时我正坐在办公室里。因为这次地震震级高，烈度大，北京也在晃动，我的办公室也在晃动。作为总理，我组织这场抗震救灾工作，主要是出于我对人民的热爱。但是，科学也给予我很大的帮助。地震后，一系列数据：震级７．８级（后经校正为８．０级），烈度最高１１度，人口密度每平方公里３００人……让我很快就知道这场灾害波及面广，受灾严重程度深。我决定立即到现场，我清楚地懂得“黄金７２小时”的重要性，特别是第一天对拯救人的生命的重要性。简单地说，就是越快越好。人们需要信心、冷静、坚定和勇气，这都需要领导人的智慧和强有力的指挥。我的指挥部就设在地震中心地带的马路旁。我当时布置工作，第一是救人。早一点把受伤者从瓦砾中救出来，他们就可以获得生命。一定要尽快派人进入震中地区、灾害最重的地区。这就需要打通道路，并且紧急调配军队和专业救援队赶赴灾区。在三天时间内，我们调集了１０多万人，从废墟中抢救出了８万人。第二是加强地震监测，预防余震。动员群众从家里出来避险，同时调运大量帐篷和物资，安置好群众生活。第三是预防次生灾害。由于这次地震太大，出现了上百个堰塞湖，其中最大的唐家山堰塞湖积水量超过３亿立方米。一旦溃口，将威胁绵阳等大城市以及沿线的几百万人口。我多次赴堰塞湖现场，和工程技术专家一起组织研究技术方案，确定了安全、科学、快速处理的方针。我们成功地处理了世界上最大的堰塞湖，无一人伤亡。这次地震是印度板块向北俯冲，造成青藏板块向南东俯冲，地震区处在龙门山断裂带，断裂西部向东仰冲，然后向北东走滑。经过精确测量，震中地区地壳水平位移１．５米，断层的东部下陷７０厘米。四是防疫。地震死亡人数超过８万人。在这种情况下，卫生防疫非常重要。我们确实做到了灾后没有发生大的疫情。我再回到开始时说的那两句话：抗震救灾一是出于对人民的热爱，二是要科学地进行组织领导工作。
到现在为止，已经发生余震３３０００多次，其中６级以上的余震达８次。在这样一个地震活动地带如何恢复重建？我们从当地的地质地理状况出发，将重建区划分成３种类型。一是适宜重建区，二是适度重建区，三是生态重建区。地震是不可抗拒、破坏力很强的自然灾害，但是我们要加强严密的监测预报，避开地震断裂带进行重建工作。这涉及１０多万平方公里的土地和几千万人口，要逐步恢复这个地区的生产、生活和生态功能，这是一项十分艰巨的任务。
艾伯茨：在这个地区重建的建筑物是否将采取特殊的建筑方式，以具备更高的抗震能力？
温家宝：建筑的安全对于预防地震灾害十分重要。我们必须按照这个地区可能发生地震的强度和烈度来制定房屋建筑的设防标准，特别是对那些公共设施，学校、医院等，要采取更为安全的措施，使家长们放心，孩子们安心。选址非常重要，要避开断裂带。
艾伯茨：在一个月时间里，我们每天都在关注中国正在进行的抗震救灾工作，从报章中，我们了解到中国政府在应对灾害中令人印象深刻的表现，还了解到中国各地的人们奔赴灾区做志愿者的情况。整个事件让美国人民对中国产生了很好的印象。
温家宝：我们实行了对外开放的方针，在第一时间将地震的消息向全国乃至世界宣布。之所以这样做，完全是为了人民。人们要知道还有没有余震，什么时候发生余震。我们要告诉他们避震的方法，并给予妥善的安置。
艾伯茨：中国正在开展落实科学发展观活动，但是我们不了解科学发展观的确切含义。您能否解释一下科学发展观？科学家将在其中发挥什么作用？
温家宝：科学发展观，第一是以人为本，就是要通过发展生产来满足人们日益增长的物质文化需求，就是要使每一个人都能在平等自由的环境下得到全面发展、和谐发展。第二，全面发展，主要是指经济发展与社会发展的结合，经济体制改革与政治体制改革的结合，开放兼容与自主创新的结合，先进文明与传统文化的结合。第三，统筹兼顾，就是要解决我们国家在发展进程中存在的贫富差距、地区差距和城乡差距的问题。第四，可持续发展，就是要解决１３亿人口在实现现代化进程中所面临的人口、资源和环境的压力，走资源节约和生态友好型的道路，实现可持续发展，要实现这４个目标都离不开科学技术，都离不开自主创新。
艾伯茨：您考虑如何把科技引入农村？
温家宝：我想介绍一点中国农村运用科技的情况。第一，实用技术推广，包括良种良法、节水节肥、高产高效。第二，农村社会的发展，就是要让农业科技下乡，农业科技人员下乡，农村需要科技，需要大批的科技人员。在这方面因特网将发挥很大作用，它可以传播科技知识，可以帮助农民销售农产品。第三，促进农村社会进步，特别是在农村普及９年免费义务教育。这一点我们已经做到了，而且对贫困地区还实行了免除书本费，并且对寄宿生实行生活资助。我们还将实行农村高中阶段教育的奖助学金制度，对职业学校实行全部免费。我曾经讲过穷人经济学和穷人教育学的观点，因为在中国乃至世界，穷人还是绝大多数。我们的经济发展和教育发展要面向穷人。今天我还想补充一个观点，就是我们的科技工作也要面向农村，面向广大穷人。科技在农村是大有作为的，比如沼气、太阳能发电都方兴未艾。
艾伯茨：中国正在建设创新体系。要实现这个目标，中国不仅需要吸引更多的外国人才，还需要培养自己的创新人才。中国已经有了一个积极的计划，未来将如何去做？
第二个方面是吸收和引进外国人才。我们实行对外开放的方针是坚定的、持久的。在对外开放中，引进智力资源、引进科技人才是最为重要的。从这一点来说，科学家可以跨越意识形态的障碍、国界的障碍，而为全人类服务。我们一定为国外科学家到中国工作创造良好的环境。但我以为这还不是主要的，应该使他们感到在中国他们的事业有发展的条件，他们得到中国的尊重，他们的成果得到中国的尊重，这就要保护他们独立的创造精神和知识产权。
艾伯茨：真正的创新都是来源于２０到２５年以前的基础科学研究，我们担心美国缺乏对基础科学研究的支持。如果没有对基础科学研究的支持，如何能开创一个具有创新能力的未来？我了解到，中国把基础科学研究投入的比例确定为总体科研投入的５％，您认为这个比例是否足够？
温家宝：我个人非常重视基础科学研究，我认为， 任何科技应用和开发的研究都离不开基础科学研究作为源泉和动力。而在我们这个世界里，往往因为急功近利而忽视基础科学研究，这是应该加以避免的。我们这些年不断加大力度，但我以为这个比重还是不够的。
艾伯茨：我的经验告诉我，发展基础科学是培养优秀青年科学家的最佳途径，因为他们可以通过团队工作来培养自己的才干，然后在此基础上进一步从事应用科学研究。
温家宝：您说对了。中国青年，特别是学生，从事基础科学研究是有优势的，他们勤奋，他们专心，而且十分投入。
艾伯茨：在美国，我也有许多中国学生。令我印象深刻的是美籍华人对中国的强烈归属感，大多数人每年都要回来帮助中国。在美国的华人科学家有一个有效的组织，帮助中国发展科技事业。这是与众不同的。
温家宝：我们对他们的政策是来去自由，可以以不同方式为祖国服务。
艾伯茨：他们是我们两国的纽带。他们在美国备受尊重，他们的子女也成为了美国公民。我认为这对世界和平是一项投资，他们可以跨越国界进行沟通。
温家宝：我们不加任何限制，而且对他们努力促进中美科技合作，发展两国人民友谊采取鼓励的方式。
艾伯茨：你也许知道美国国立健康研究院最近采取一种有效的方式，支持年轻科学家创新。我在中国见到了许多非常出色的年轻科学家、研究人员和学生，如果能获得类似的机会，将是对他们的巨大鼓舞。
温家宝：我们要重视年轻科学家。应该说，这一点我们做得还不够。在科学上不应该论资排辈，而要鼓励年轻人超过老年人，因为他们精力旺盛，富有创造精神。也许在前进的路上会出现这样那样的问题，但他们代表着未来。我们今后一定要加强对青年科学家的资助。
艾伯茨：中国政府对奶粉事件的反应给我留下深刻印象。请您介绍一下中国对保证食品安全有什么计划？
温家宝：我们想做三件事情。第一，严肃认真地处理这起奶粉事件，并从中吸取深刻的教训。第二，研究制定振兴中国食品业的规划。第三，加强立法，依法治理和监督从田地到餐桌的每一个环节。这次奶粉事件使我们感到非常痛心。我们觉得，事情发生在企业，但政府有责任，特别是在监管方面。奶制品产业的几个重要环节，原奶生产、收购、运输、加工、配方和制成品，这些环节都要有明确的标准和检测要求，而且要有相应的责任，乃至法律责任。我再一次郑重强调，决不能以牺牲人的生命和健康来换取一时的经济发展。我向您保证，我们的政府一定能带领人民渡过这段由奶品事件所造成的困难，使中国的食品业有一个大的改观。所有的食品都要符合国际标准，出口食品还要符合进口国的标准。我以为，在质量检测、监督管理各个环节都离不开科学技术。我们已经确定卫生部作为食品监管的主要部门。
艾伯茨：另一个全球科学家和工程师可以合作的领域是开发更加高效的利用能源的方法。我们面临全球性危机，包括温室气体排放，资源短缺。美国和中国在这一领域如何做，将对全世界可持续发展具有重要意义。中国在能源使用和开发方面有什么计划？
温家宝：中国是使用能源的大国，也是温室气体排放的大国。因此，摆在我们面前十分重要的任务就是节能减排，搞好环境保护。我们一定要合理地使用能源，立足于节约，这就需要调整经济结构，转变发展方式，使经济发展转移到更多地依靠科技进步和劳动者素质提高上来。我们要采取坚决措施，包括经济、法律和必要的行政手段，严格限制高耗能、高污染企业的发展，鼓励节能环保企业的发展。现在中国每年自产约１．８亿吨石油，进口约１．７亿吨，对外依存度几乎达到５０％。煤炭产量也超过２５亿吨。这样大量消耗能源，特别是不可再生的化石能源，将是不可持续的。我们已经确定了一个目标，就是在今后经济发展中，单位ＧＤＰ能耗每年要减少４％，化学需氧量和二氧化硫排放要减少２％，我们还要采取多方面的措施减少石油和煤炭的使用量，以减少温室气体的排放量，包括节能技术和碳捕获技术。我们的工业化才走了几十年的路，而发达国家已经走了２００年的路。但我们要承担起应该承担的责任，这就是《联合国气候变化框架公约》和《京都议定书》所确定的共同但有区别的责任。我们已经意识到这个问题对整个世界的严重性。
艾伯茨：在应对这些全球性危机方面，美国和中国可以共同发挥特殊作用。我想我们是否可以在碳捕获等领域开展大规模合作。目前两国都在积极研究这项技术。美中两国科学家密切合作不仅可以加快进展，而且将向全世界发出强有力的信号，表明我们两国都认真重视这个问题，并愿意采取行动。
温家宝：刚刚签署的《中美能源环境十年合作框架》文件，是我们两国合作的一个新亮点。我们加强合作，向世界发出共同的信息，一道努力保护我们共同生活的家园。无论美国选举结果如何，我们都愿意同美国继续加深合作。
艾伯茨：我想问一个涉及范围更广泛的问题，我们是否可以运用科学来推进外交？您是否认为各国科学家可以在这方面发挥更大作用，通过合作研究，在科学界架起新的桥梁，来促进世界和平？
温家宝：我认为完全可以。首先，世界各国的科学家通过科学研究，在追求真理、崇尚科学和实事求是这一点上都有共同的愿望，共同的特点，加强他们之间的密切合作与联系，容易增强共识，增进互信。第二，科学家所从事的工作同经济社会发展和人们的生活联系越来越密切，比如因特网，因此科学家的相互联系交流也会促进国与国之间在经济社会方面的相互合作与交流。多一点科学语言，少一点外交辞令，这个世界可能会更加美好。
Below is the complete transcript of Fareed Zakaria's interview with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao. The interview was taped September 23, and portions were shown on "Fareed Zakaria GPS" on September 28.
Zakaria: We are now beginning the formal interview, just so everyone realizes.
Wen Jiabao: Before we begin, I would like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your questions, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions.
I always tell people that sometimes I may not tell what is on my mind, that as long as I speak out what is on my mind, the words are true.
I think you are now interviewing a statesman, and at the same time you are interviewing a statesman in his capacity as a common people.
I prefer dialogue to long-winded speeches, so you can always interrupt me and raise your questions. That would certainly make our dialogue more lively.
Zakaria: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue, and I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor. The first thing I have to ask you, I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States, and does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?
Wen Jiabao: I took office as the Chinese premier six years ago, and before then I was serving as the vice premier of the country. When I was the vice premier, I experienced another financial crisis but in Asia. And in wake of the Asian financial crisis, China adopted a proactive fiscal policy and decided not to devalue the RMB, the Chinese currency, but doing so we managed to overcome the difficulties. But now the problems in the United States started with the subprime crisis and later on, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were involved in the problems, and the Lehman Brothers was in trouble, Merrill Lynch was in trouble, the AIG was in trouble, and such large investment banking companies and insurance companies all encountered systematic problems.
And this has made me feel that this time the crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world. Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s.
So this time we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic system in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt, not only in this country but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.
I have noted a host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one, and I hope that measures and steps they have adopted will pay off. I also hope that these measures and steps will not only save some major U.S. financial companies but also help stabilize the U.S. economy and ensure that the U.S. economy will grow on a balanced course.
Zakaria: When you look at your own economy, as you know, there are many people who now say there will be a significant slowdown of the Chinese economy. There are people predicting that Chinese growth rates may slow to as much as 7 percent. Do you think that will happen? And if it does, I wonder, what do you think the consequences will be in China?
Wen Jiabao: Yes, indeed. China's economy has been growing at an annual average rate of 9.6 percent for 30 years running. This is a miracle.
Particularly between the year 2003 and 2007, China had enjoyed a double-digit growth for its economy, and at the same time the CPI grew in for less than 2 percent a year. It is fair to say that China has achieved a fairly fast and steady economic growth.
This time, China has been proactive in adopting regulatory measures. Our previous considerations were to prevent a fast-growing economy from becoming overheated and to prevent the faster soaring prices from becoming obvious inflation. But things have changed very fast, and I refer to the sub-prime crisis in the United States and the serious financial turbulences that follow the sub-prime crisis.
And as a result, we have seen a decline in external demand, and China's domestic demand can hardly be increased in a very significant manner in a short period of time. In this case, it is true that we do have this risk of a slowdown in the Chinese economy.
In this context, we must re-adjust the macroeconomic policy in China in order to adapt ourselves to external changes. What is most important is for us to strike a balance between economic growth, dampening the price rises and bringing inflation under control. And to strike a balance between job creation and dampening inflation and I know it's very, very difficult to strike a balance in all those areas.
We need to adopt a flexible and prudent macroeconomic policy to adapt to external changes in order to ensure very fast and steady economic growth and at the same time keeping inflation down.
Zakaria: Do you think you can continue to grow if the United States goes into a major recession?
Wen Jiabao: In the first half of this year, or given the statistics for the first eight months of this year, we can see that we have managed to do that.
A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the China economy. As we know that 10 years ago, the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only $102.6 billion U.S., while today the figures soar to $302 billion U.S., actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export.
And the U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital.
That's why in the very beginning I have made it clear that the financial problems in this country not only concerns the interests of the United States but also that of China and the world at large.
Zakaria: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, they're worth almost $1 trillion. It makes some Americans uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some way?
Wen Jiabao: As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based. Particularly the high-tech industries and the basic industries. Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy, but if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country.
The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible, and we also hope to see sustained development in the United States as that will benefit China.
Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States.
And actually we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance and to prevent a major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now cooperation is everything.
Zakaria: May I ask you about China's role in a broader sense? Many people see China as a superpower already, and they wonder: why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions?
There is a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder, to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state, and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far it has not been active. How would you react to that?
Wen Jiabao: To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question first. China is NOT a superpower. Although China has a population of 1.3 billion and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country.
We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still have dozens of million people living in poverty. As a matter of fact, over 60 million people in rural and urban areas in China still live on allowances for basic living costs in my country. And each year, we need to take care of about 23 million unemployed in urban areas and about 200 million farmers come and go to cities to find jobs in China. We need to make committed and very earnest efforts to address all these problems.
To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower. That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.
Zakaria: But surely the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government or the Iranian government or the government in Burma to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.
Wen Jiabao: That brings me to your second question. Actually in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles.
Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue. China was among the first countries sending peace-keepers to Darfur.
China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan and we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.
[ 本帖最后由 苏获 于 2008-10-19 11:59 编辑 ]
Wen Jiabao: We are not supportive of a nuclear rise to Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop a utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the [International Atomic Energy Agency], and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stance is clear-cut.
We hope that through promoting the talks concerning this issue, that we will be able to encourage the Iranian authorities to give up any idea to develop nuclear weapons and accept IAEA safeguards.
Nonetheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force. It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.
And I also have a question for you: Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean peninsula move for the better day by day? And, of course, I know that it still takes time to seek a thorough and complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue, and on that basis to help put in place the security and stability in Northeast Asia. But, what I'd like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, prove to be right in this, in this direction.
Zakaria: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And of course it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea because we see that it produces results.
Wen Jiabao: We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the six-party talks, and the progress made in the six-party talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.
Zakaria: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said now it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet, he accepts the socialist system in Tibet, and what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy. The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself -- and you or President Hu Jintao would negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all for the benefit of the Chinese people, and of course the Tibetan people who are also in China?
Wen Jiabao: Our issue with the Dalai Lama is not an ethnic, religious or cultural issue in the ordinary sense. It's a major principled issue concerning safeguarding the country's unity or allowing efforts to separate a country. And we must adopt a two-pronged approach in viewing the Dalai Lama. On one hand, it is true that the Dalai is a religious leader, and he enjoys certain influence in the Tibetan region, and particularly in regions that the inhabitants believe in Buddhism. And, on the other hand, we must also be aware that he is not an ordinary religious figure. The so-called government in exile founded by the Dalai Lama practices a theocratic rule. And the purpose of this so-called government in exile is to separate Tibet from China.
In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about the idea of a so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. And actually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to use religion to intervene in politics. They want to separate the so-called greater Tibetan region from the motherland. And many people in the United States have no idea how big is the so-called greater Tibetan region, the so-called greater Tibetan region, preached by the Dalai Lama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu -- altogether five provinces. And the area covered by the so-called greater Tibetan region accounts for a quarter of China's territory.
For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged: that is, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we're willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives.
Now, sincerity holds the key to producing result out of the talks. After the Tibet incident back in the 1950's, the highest leader of the central government, Mr. Deng Xiaoping, also met the representatives of the Dalai Lama.
So, I don't think there is this problem, as whether I can have contact with the Dalai Lama. The real key lies in the effectiveness of such contact and talks.
We hope that he can use real actions to show sincerity and break the deadlock.
Zakaria: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?
Wen Jiabao: Actually, I already made it clear that when we observe any individual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what, we should not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.
His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities.
Zakaria: And then you might meet with him?
Wen Jiabao: By then, everything depends on the development of the situation. Of course, talks may continue, and in light of the progress in the talks, we may also consider raising the level of the talks.
Zakaria: Premier Wen, your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9½ percent for 30 years -- fastest growth rate of any country in history. If people come to you and say to you, "What is the Chinese model of succeeding as a developing country?" What would you say? What is the key to your success? What is the model?
Wen Jiabao: It's easy to answer this question, that you may think about this thing -- that about 30 years ago, why China was not able to grow as fast as it has in the following years. I think this is attributable to the reforms and opening up a policy we introduced in 1978. This holds the key to China's success. By introducing reform and opening up, we have greatly emancipated productivity in China.
We have one important thought: that socialism can also practice market economy.
Zakaria: People think that's a contradiction. You have the market economy, where the market allocates resources, and in socialism, it's all central planning. How do you make both work?
Wen Jiabao: The complete formulation of our economic policy is to give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.
We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years: that is to ensure that both the visible hand and the invisible hand are given full play in regulating the market forces.
If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you will know that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth of Nations"; the other is the book on the morality and ethics. And, "The Wealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand that are the market forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice. And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playing the regulatory role of the government to further distribute the wealth among the people.
If in a country, most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.
The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To address the current economic and financial problems in this country, we need to apply not only the visible hand but also the invisible hand.
Zakaria: May I ask you -- some Americans and Europeans, particularly human rights observers, say that China has cracked down on human rights over the last few years, that they had been hoping that the Olympics would lead to an opening of China, but that it has, there has been more repression. How would you respond to that?
Wen Jiabao: By hosting the Olympic Games, China has actually become more open. Anyone without biases will see -- have seen that. In the freedom of speech and the freedom in news media coverage are guaranteed in China. The Chinese government attaches importance to, and protects, human rights. We have incorporated these lines into the Chinese constitution, and we also implement the stipulation in real earnest. I think for any government, what is most important, is to ensure that its people enjoy each and every right given to them by the constitution.
Including their right to survival, freedom and to pursue their happiness.
We don't think that we are impeccable in terms of human rights. It is true that in some places and in some areas, we do have problems of this kind or that kind. Nonetheless, we are continuing to make efforts to make improvements, and we want to further improve human rights in our country.
Wen Jiabao: China now has over 200 million Internet users, and the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the west. Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. That is for the safety, that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.
I can also tell you on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government.
It is exactly through reading these critical opinions on the Internet that we try to locate problems and further improve our work.
I don't think a system or a government should fear critical opinions or views. Only by heeding those critical views would it be possible for us to further improve our work and make further progress.
I frequently browse the Internet to learn about a situation.
Zakaria: What are your favorite sites?
Wen Jiabao: I've browsed a lot of Internet Web sites.
Zakaria: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask you a question that many people around the world wonder about. There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?
Wen Jiabao: I believe that while moving ahead with economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms, as our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.
I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas:
No. 1: We need to gradually improve the democratic election system so that state power will truly belong to the people and state power will be used to serve the people
No. 2: We need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law, and establish the country under the rule of law and we need to view an independent and just judicial system.
No. 3: Government should be subject to oversight by the people and that will ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs and particularly it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.
There is also another important aspect that when it comes to development of democracy in China, we need to take into account China's national conditions, and we need to introduce a system that suits China's special features, and we need to introduce a gradual approach.
Zakaria: People say you're studying the Japanese system because there's democracy but there's only one party that seems to win the elections. Is that the kind of model you see for China?
Wen Jiabao: I think there are multiple forms of democracy in the world. What is important is the substance of democracy.
Which means that at the end of the day, what is important about democracy is that whether such form of democracy can really represent the calling and interest of the people.
Socialism as I understand it is a system of democracy. Without democracy, there is no socialism.
And such a democracy first and foremost should serve to ensure people's right to democratic elections, oversight and decision making.
Such a democracy should also help people to fully develop themselves in an all-around way in an environment featuring freedom and equality.
And such a democracy should be based on a full-fledged legal system. Otherwise, there would be chaos. That's why we need to run the country according to law and ensure that everyone is equal under the law.
Zakaria: We've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be a competition, there will be perhaps two parties, that will be running for a position such as your own?
Wen Jiabao: It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years time. This being said, I have this conviction -- that China's democracy will continue to grow. In 20 to 30 years time, the whole Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China will further be improved. The socialism as we see it will further mature and improve.
Zakaria: Let me ask you, premier, finally a couple of questions that are personal. You've said that you've read the works of Marcus Aurelius a hundred times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous stoic philosopher. My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self, and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested but should be more for the community as a whole. When I go to China these days, I am struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?
Wen Jiabao: It is true I did read the meditations written by Marcus Aurelius Antonio on many occasions, and I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote in the book -- to be fact - where are those people that were great for a time? They are all gone, leaving only a story, or some even just half a story. So I draw the conclusion that only people are in the position to create history and write history.
I very much value morality, and I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics.
In my mind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality is justice.
That's why in the morning when I answered the question, I said that I believe in the veins of the economist, we should see the blood of morality.
When we think about economy, we think more about the real elements concerning the company, the capital, the market, the technology, so on and so forth. And we might forget about the other sort of elements that work behind the scene, and these factors are also affected by the visible factors like conviction and morality. Only when we combine these two kinds of factors, can we put in place a full picture of the DNA of the economy.
It is true in the course of China's economic development, some companies have actually pursued their profits at the expense of morality and we will never allow such things to happen.
We will not allow economic growth at the expense of the loss of morality because such approach simply can not sustain.
That's why we advocate the corporate, occupational and social ethics.
Zakaria: Let me ask you a final question, your excellency. You must have been watching the American election. What is your reaction to the strange race and election that we are having in this country?
Wen Jiabao: The presidential election of the United States should be decided by the American people. But what I follow very closely is the relationship between China and the United States after the election.
In recent years, there has been a sound growth momentum in the growth of China-U.S. relations. And we hope, and whoever is elected as the president and whoever is sworn in into the White House, no matter which party wins the election, that he or she and the parties will continue to grow the relationship with China. And China hopes to continue to improve and grow its relationship with the United States no matter who will take office and lead the new administration in this country.
Zakaria: On that happy note, I thank you, your excellency. I'm sure your people are worried we took a little extra time. And I thank you in advance for your kindness and your frankness.